Library: 大家好！今天我们非常荣幸请到上海音乐学院作曲系的教授陆培先生来参与我们的面谈。也谢谢陆老师抽出您宝贵的时间。陆老师是密大的校友。他是上世纪末来到密大的作曲系读书，并与2002年拿到他作曲方向的博士。然后，今天非常荣幸陆老师过来跟我们分享一些他在密大的一些学习与生活的经历，和感悟。欢迎您！
Library: Hi everybody! We are honored to have Prof. Lu Pei, Professor of Composition at the Shanghai Conservatory of music with us today. And Prof. Lu Thank you so much for your time! Prof. Lu is a University of Michigan Alumnus. He came to study at the department of composition at the end of last century and got his doctoral degree in composition in 2002. We are excited to hear about his stories and experiences at the UofM. Welcome!

Lu: 谢谢！
Lu: Thank you!

Library：首先我想问一下陆老师，介绍一下您的背景。您是哪儿的人呢？
Library: First I would like Prof. Lu to talk a bit about your background. Where do you come from?

Lu： 我是广西人，南宁。广西首府南宁。我的父辈是广东人，广东中山的。然后他们来到那里，然后我就生在南宁，长在南宁。我中学在南宁，本科也在南宁读的。
Lu: I am from Guangxi, Nanning. Nanning is the capital city of Guangxi province. My father came from a city call Zhongshan in Guangdong and moved there. I was born in Nanning and grew up in Nanning. I went to school at Nanning and got my college education there as well.

Library：因为广西是一个壮族自治区嘛，民族融合的经历对您以后作曲有什么影响吗？
Library: As we know, Guangxi is an autonomous region of the Zhuang minority. What kind of influence do you see a multi-ethnic experience has on your later career as a composer?

Lu：这倒是挺好玩。因为我在那儿读书，我读的作曲，是77级，我是77级学生，就第一届，文化大革命。
Lu: This was quite an interesting experience. I went to school there, and I studied music composition as the class of 1977 as higher education system resumed after the Cultural Revolution.

Library：是在什么学校？
Library: Which school did you go to?

Lu：我在广西艺术学院，读的本科。然后那时候就去采风。到那个山里，到少数民族地区去采风。那对我来说影响蛮深的。所以我作品里面常常会有不自然的出现一些广西壮族的那种因素在里面。真的太熟了，我对那里面。
Lu: It was the Art Academy of Guangxi. And I did my bachelor degree there. I often went to the mountain area to collect folk music elements. And therefore, these elements also reflected in my compositions. I was too familiar with Guangxi.

Library：谢谢陆老师给我们介绍您的背景。下一个问题，我们知道，您跟我们目前访问过的校友不一样。您在来密歇根，甚至出来美国之前，您已经是一个很有名气跟成就的作曲家了。然后我就想问一下，为什么当初您会选择来美国，来密歇根呢？
Library: Thank you for sharing your background with us. So move to the next question. As we know, differed to many of our previous interviewees, Prof. Lu was already a quite accomplished and famous composer in China. So my next question comes, why the U.S.? Why did you choose Michigan?

Lu：来美国、来密歇根读书那是由于很Personal的原因，就是因为我的小孩病了。就是他得了呼吸道的毛病。因为那时候上海的空气很差，然后我儿子那时候，他是87年出生的，然后就一直在生病，咳嗽很厉害。肺炎、哮喘。甚至于把我太太—我太太是一个非常好的作曲家，当时也非常有名的作曲家。由于她天天晚上不能睡觉，把身体也搞坏了，就变成了失眠症，甚至影响到她的专业作曲了。就有焦虑啊。后来有人告诉我，你小孩去美国肯定好。它那边空气好。然后我就这么来美国了。一来了，果真，没生过病，再也没有生过病了。
Lu: The reason for me to move to Michigan was quite personal. My child was sick. He got this severe respiratory disease. The air quality was very poor in Shanghai, and my son was constantly sick. His sickness also affected my wife’s career. She was also a famous composer. But the caregiving role had deprived her of resting and impacted her work. She was very anxious. And later someone told me that the air quality in the U.S. is very good. Your kid would be alright in the U.S., so I was determined about coming to the U.S. To be honest, his illness disappeared after we moved here.

Library：您的事业也进一步的发展了。
Library: It also helped your career, I presume.

Lu：也就是给我打开另外一扇门了。
Lu: It opened another door for me.

Library：也算一个塞翁失马的一个例子吧？
Library: It turns out to be a blessing in disguise.

Lu：对！塞翁失马，或者无心插柳。
Lu: True! Like a blessing in disguise. Or unintentional fortune.

Library：现在一切顺利就好。那下面就再想邀请您谈一下，就当是您在密大读的是DMA（Doctor of Musical Arts），三年的DMA是吧？
Library: The most important is that you are all well today! So I am wondering if you can talk about your experience at the University. You did a three-year DMA (Doctor of Musical Arts) program here, am I right?

Lu：对！
Lu: Right.

Library：然后想请您聊一聊当是您在密大的三年中您的生活跟学习的一些经历。有什么让你觉得出彩，或者比较记忆犹新的？
Library: Any of the experience during those three years that still stands out to you? Or you find refreshing?

Lu：我是非常喜欢密西根大学的生活的。就甚至觉得在密歇根的这几年的生活，三年的那个学生生活，四年了吧—三年的program，然后再加上一年的助教—就一共四年。这四年的生活对我来说都是记忆犹新。所以这就是为什么我常常会做梦回到Michigan来。这次回来也真是圆了个梦了，还了个“乡愿”。密大给我印象很深。印象深就这些老师。。。首先一点就是密大对我很好。比如说，在finance上面，在financial的support上面，给我那个Rackham的那个fellowship，那就是非常优惠、优越的那个学习条件。因为我也不用做TA。同时还给我stipend，足够用了。只要保持我的那个学习成绩是B-以上，就行了。所以，我得的是straight A，全部是A。
Lu: I like my life here very much! I stayed here for four years, three years as a student, and one year as a teaching assistant. My experience here was still kept refreshing. I in fact, always dream about coming back to the campus. So my trip this time was indeed a dream that comes true. First of all, UofM took great care of me. For example, it offered me a great financial support. I got the Rackham Fellowship. It gave me a stipend, and I did not have to work. All I need to do was to keep my grades above B-. And I got straight As.

Library：相信密大也一定有您这样的毕业生为荣！
Library: I believe the UofM is also proud to have you as our alumni.

Lu：这我不敢说。不过我倒是很愉快！这是一点。第二点呢，老师、同学们都很好！我们那个博士班的，就是同一届进来的我们那几位都非常好，就是常常在一块聊天，聊创作。这也是印象很深的。老师也很好！我跟那个William Balcom，Michael Daugherty，Bright Sheng他们，不但是学生关系—因为我年纪比较大了嘛，我当时进来时候都40岁了。也同他们是非常好的朋友。
Lu: I can’t say for sure. But I had a wonderful time here. Secondly, my professors and classmates here were all super nice. I developed a profound friendship with my doctoral fellows. We talked a lot, about our compositions. And the professors were great, too! Like William Balcom, Micael Daugherty, and Bright Sheng. I was 40 when I got admitted. So partially I was their students, and partially I was their good friends.

Library：亦师亦友。
Library: Students and friends.

Lu：对！就亦师亦友。所以这也是给我。。。第四就是那个密大的校园非常漂亮。还有最重要的一点就是密大的文化生活非常丰富。那时候我记得，看着全部的名团，就它每年都有名团，UMS邀请。我有一年就看了几个乐团，比如柏林爱乐，连续看两次！阿巴多指挥！还有阿姆斯特丹的乐团。那个俄罗斯国家交响乐团，那时候是非常棒的乐团, 那个格基耶夫指挥的。那个现代舞—我非常喜欢那个现代舞。所以印象非常深！接受了很多的熏陶。而且那个学生票才10美元。就是这个季节！就去Power Center那儿排队买套票。很过瘾，也很精彩！所以印象很深！
Lu: That’s right. And the campus is very beautiful! Most importantly, the life at the UofM campus is very diverse and resourceful! The UMS (University Musical Society) invites famous musicians here every year. When I was here, I watched the Berlin Philharmonic concert twice, and Maestro Abbado was the conductor. The Amsterdam symphony orchestra visited, too. And the Russian State Symphony Orchestra also visited, which Gergiev conducted the concert. I also like modern dance very much! The environment that UofM creates was very nurturing to me. And the student tickets were only $10. It was around this time of the year, I often waited in line in the Power Center waiting to buy tickets. Very good and astounding memory. Very impressive!

Library：那就说，像您刚刚提到的，就密大有很丰富的资源，经常会请世界上各种各样的名人、名团，各个领域的，来这边访问。然后它对学生也有一个很大力的政策上的鼓励支持，来参加这样的活动，在票价上也有优惠。
Library: As you mention, the UofM campus is very resourceful. It invites famous musicians, as well as scholars from other fields every year. And it encourages its students participating in these events by giving great discounts in the tickets.

Lu：对！
Lu: That’s right.

Library：那除了这个方面，您觉得密大的学习生活对于您今后作为一个作曲家的一个职业有什么样其他的影响呢？
Library: So in addition to this, what other influences do you see your UofM experience has on you as a composer?

Lu：在密大来说，学习上是很优质的！我觉得作为一个学生，他能学习到东西主要是靠他自己爱不爱，有没有兴趣。对吧？你不爱，没有兴趣，这个resource再丰富也没有用的。所以我觉得就说，因为我很喜欢，我很爱。所以我觉得那一切东西。比如说这图书馆，那个图书馆他也很震撼！那么多的书！那么好的环境！Dudestadt也去了。那也是我常常去。因为我做那个electronic music的时候就在那里做的。我那个时候assign我那个时间，我自己签的都是两点到四点。可是签那个时间最主要的的原因是后面五点到六点那个不会来。所以我就可以得更多的时间，所以我就专门就要那个时间。所以那个楼我也很喜欢。所以，你看那个图书馆，坐在那里看书，这才叫图书馆！那个时候，我是非常幸福的感觉，坐在那里，靠窗，就面对North Campus那条路，就Engineering School还有美术学院那条路一直过去，在那儿坐着看书很爽！环境也好！书又多！很过瘾！我常跟我的学生说，其实这种努力啊什么，我就说：“不要老说学习学习。”你去enjoy它！比如说音乐会你去听，你搞这个为什么不去享受？其实学习都在里面了！
Lu: UofM offered world class experience for studying. Take the library, for example, which is quite astonishing! Millions of books, and great environment! I like the music library. I often sat by the window so I can get a great view of the North Campus. It was a great experience. I also often visited the Duderstadt building. I did my electronic music there. We could only take the room for 2 hours, so I usually signed my name between 2 to 4 in the afternoon, because I knew the people after 6 pm normally wouldn’t show up, so I can use the studio for 4 hours. On the other hand, I think, as a student, the most important factor is the interest. If one has no interest in what s/he studies, the resource would be in vain regardless of its abundance. As for me, I love my career, and I think that is the most important thing. As I often told my student, don’t complaint about your study. You should enjoy it! Like going to a concert, it is already a good learning experience.

Library：对，它的motivation很重要。
Library: Right, the motivation is very important.

Lu：是啊！你不然的话，哎哟！很苦！你一天到晚学习学习。我觉得这不lasting，是吧？
Lu: Right! Otherwise, you will find study very tedious, and it is not durable, am I right?

Library：对！那么，在问下一个问题之前，我也想恭喜一下陆老师，因为我知道您的一个小提琴的作品集也在去年出版了，在此也恭喜您！
Library: Right! So, before moving to our next questions, I want to first congratulate Prof. Lu. I understood that your Lu Pei Selected Violin Works was published last year.

Lu：谢谢！
Lu: Thank you!

Library：那么借这个话题，我也想问一下，就您现在作一个作曲家，那当时最初的时候，是什么样的因素来促使您想成一名作曲家呢？
Library: Since we on this topic, I also want to ask, what inspired you to become a composer at first place?

Lu：这个就说来话长了！我以前读初中的时候，人家是上数学课—因为文化大革命的时候丢了很久，我的数学是很差的，还有理化，是很差的。而在这种课上我就在作曲。我就在写我的旋律，简谱。又拿来一个毛主席诗词，就给它谱曲。
Lu: It was a long story. When I was in the middle school, I did poorly in all of my science subjects. So I was composing during these classes. I took out the Selected Poems of Mao Zedong, and I started writing melodies for them.

Library：那时候是属于自学吗？
Library: Did you teach yourself that?

Lu：属于自学！没有人教。我家又没有音乐背景。我爸爸是干部，是搞人事的干部，是工程师。我妈妈是当兵出身，也没有什么音乐背景。然后我那时候自学小提琴。对对！我一直在拉小提琴。所以我写这么多小提琴作品，因为我小提琴作品有几个都是在密歇根写的。因为很顺手，所以他们也很喜欢演奏。
Lu: Yeah I did. I did not have any musical background in my family. My father worked for the government, and my mom was with the army. And I also taught myself violin. I played the violin, and this is the reason I composed many pieces for the instrument. Many of them had been written in Michigan. Because I know the instrument so well, so the performers love playing them, too.

Library：这些作品都搜集在那个《小提琴作品集》里面吗？
Library: Were these works included in the newest publication?

Lu：对！都在那本里面了！就是1999年，那个《四首幻想曲》是1999年，是我在这里一年级的时候写的。然后又继续写了那个岳飞，那个《满江红—英雄传奇》那个索纳塔。那个也是这里写的。那个获了芝加哥国际比赛的第二名。然后在芝加哥首演了。《四首幻想曲》是香港的一个基金会出钱委约的，跟旧金山交响乐团的一个小提琴演奏家写，然后在旧金山首演，后来又在芝加哥演，后来又再我们学校演。后来那个《满江红》在获奖后就在芝加哥，由一个很有名的小提琴演奏家叫Rachel Barton Pine，非常棒的小提琴家。 拉得非常好。所以那个小提琴奏鸣曲是她首演，然后后来又演了很多次。那个小提琴奏鸣曲就是在Balcom手下写的。是他给我上的课。可是问题就是，那时候他提出的几个意见我都拒绝了。他说要改，可是我觉得，我这个正好是展开、发展上去，好推向高潮，你一砍掉我就没了。所以我就没砍。后来给他听他也没说好。我坚持， 我不砍。
Lu: Right, they are included. The Four Fantasia [四首幻想曲] was composed in 1999, during my first year at UofM. And I composed a Sonata called The Whole River Red–Legend of Hero [满江红—英雄传奇] later. That piece has won me the second prize at a Chicago International Competition and was premiered in Chicago. The Four Fantasia was commissioned by a HongKong foundation, and premiered in San Francisco by the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra, and later performed in Chicago, and here in Ann Arbor. The Whole River Red was played by Rachel Barton Pine, a very good violinist. She premiered this piece and later played it several times. The Sonata was written while I was studying with Prof. Balcom here. Too bad, he gave me several suggestions, and I all turn them down. When he listened to it later, he didn’t say anything.

Library：这边老师还是很鼓励学生要有自己的声音。
Library: The professors here encourage their students to find their own voice.

Lu：是！那当然！
Lu: Yeah! That’s for sure!

Library：然后，最后一个问题想要再问一下陆老师，您觉得，作为一个音乐人，作为一个作曲家，你觉得现在这个社会中应该起到一个什么样的作用？或者说，在一个理想社会中，您希望您的作品对这个社会有些什么影响呢？
Library: So the last question I want to ask is, as a musician and a composer, what kind of impact do you think you ought to have on the society? Or, in an ideal world, what kind of impact that you want your works to have?

Lu：这个是很大的题目。就说，在国内的话这种题目就说得很多。在这儿的话，基本上就是说，是我自己的追求。那我自己的追求，一般说来，我想告诉你我的故事，那我用我的方式来告诉你我的故事。然后如果你被打动了，也可以。你没被打动了，也无所谓。总归有人要被打动。那如果是一大群audience里面只要有一个被打动，我就。。。创作其实是非常personal的事情。可是呢，其实你这个问题也是对的。某些方面也是对的。特别是在中国那种地方。就中国那种地方呢，它同美国的system还有condition都不一样。社会的condition都不一样。这边人的欣赏习惯，或者欣赏能力，审美标准他会高得多。在中国的话，如果我是按照这里来写的话，我可能一个人都不能appreciate。当然这个也不可能，我起码有音乐学院的。可这种感觉我回去我又有点改变。这就为什么我现在写的作品，同在这儿写的又有一些不一样。就更traditional，我回去，我把它叫做neo-tradition。新传统主义。就说，我还是比较传统的观念，可是我里面的内核还是不能太老气，不能发出那种历史垃圾堆的味道。就像很久没翻过的旧书拿出来有一股霉味。这个不能有。你还得给人感觉是清新的，可是还是accessible的。对没有音乐训练背景的听众来说。我以后如果要再回美国写的话，可能又是另外一种处理方式了。所以有时候很难。就回到中国特别多说的，就是那个雅俗共赏。雅俗共赏很容易说，做到非常之难。那我的作品来说，你要听我的作品的话，特别是那个管弦乐，后面两首我是为中国生肖年写的。因为觉得让我们中国人在每个生肖年的时候有一首作品。所以我就想做到雅俗共赏。起码我认为是雅俗共赏。可是很多人听了还是觉得听不懂。可是呢，作曲的人来，他认可了，觉得它是雅俗共赏了。因为也有旋律，也有民族性，也有文化，也有某种品味。品味我肯定是要求的。可是有时候品味一高，中国的一般听众就听不懂了，你的俗字就没有了。雅俗共赏，这个俗就不可能达到。可是它肯定就是说，你要注意听，你要想去听的话。可是问题我又想，我的音乐不是为大众的。我的音乐是为音乐爱好者的。所以一发现这个，我的心里面就安然了。因为你在中国的话，我们的政府啊，比如说，雅俗共赏也说，音乐为人民也说。但人民有很多。你不能笼统人民。真正的我们的政府它认为的人民，可能是连，比如，他们只听邓丽君，他连梁祝他都不听的。更不用说贝多芬啊，莫扎特啊。所以说我还是有个人群。
Lu: This is a very broad topic. There are many discussions in China. However, in the U.S., basically, it is part of my personal pursue. I am telling you a story with my way. If one feels my story and will be my success. If one fails to understand the story, I will also be okay with that. Even if there were only one in the big audience, who can understand your music…Art creation is indeed very personal. However, back to your question, I think it is a solid question, especially in China. China has a different system, and condition compares to the U.S. If I am composing as if I were in the state, there might be a possibility that no one would appreciate my music, well no one except my colleagues at the conservatory. So I have to make some changes, and it is what I am focusing on my composition right now. I call them “neo-traditional.” It combines traditional concept, with an updated “CPU.” You need to have innovation, but also make your music accessible for those who never received any training in music. However, if I am back to the U.S. I will write my music differently. There is a concept in China, which is to create a masterpiece that can be appreciated by both refined and popular taste. However, it is a concept that is easier say than done. Take my compositions for example, for the last two chamber orchestras that I worked, I wanted to create a piece for each of the Chinese Zodiac year. I wanted to incorporate both refined and popular taste. At least that was my goal. So for my composition, it has to be traditional, cultural, and high taste. However, if the taste is too high, you might risk losing a large portion of your audience. But then I think, my music is not for the general audience, it is for music enthusiasts. If I think of that, I feel better. However, the Chinese government emphasizes on the people’s music. But you can’t conceptualize people. People is a very diverse group.

Library：不同的人群有不同的文化。很难做到兼顾。
Library: Different groups have different cultures. It is so hard to incorporate their need at once.

Lu：文化程度，也不能说文化程度高你就能理解。因为我们在Louisville的时候，我们那个小城市，我们基本上都是professional。不是律师就是医生、不然就是大学教授。所以我把我的音乐给他们听，他们就听不懂。基本上都听不懂。其实这个也是对我有一个很大的一个认识。所以会写一些能让人听得懂的。这个跟我前面说的又有点矛盾了。可这个矛盾又有什么办法？没办法。所以就像那个杨立青先生，我们上音的院长，著名的作曲家，我很钦佩，也是我非常好的朋友。我回国也是他叫我回的。有一次问我一句话：“你觉得你是一个音乐会作曲家还是一个学院派作曲家。”音乐会作曲家就是一个一般人能听得懂的，你想你的作品能放在音乐会的，稍微有点雅俗共赏的那种意思。因为它包括了一般的音乐听众、爱好者在里面。可是学院派的话，就是学术性的、探索性的。我根本不考虑什么听众。我只考虑我自己想表达的东西。可是这种东西在学校里面是吃得开的。学校里需要这种探索。而一般人是听不懂。所以它是学院派，他的那个解释我觉得基本上是大概是这样。
Lu: Educational level too. But you can’t say higher educators can surely understand my music. When I was in Louisville, I lived in a small town where many professionals gathered, such as doctors or professors. When I showed them my music, they couldn’t understand. It is then a bit controversial. The previous President of Shanghai Conservatory Prof. Yang Liqing, who was also my most admirable friend, once asked me: “do you see yourself as a concert composer or academic composer?” A concert composer needs to shift the focus more towards a general audience. Whereas the academic composer focuses more on research and exploration. If I am only thinking about my own interpretation of music, that makes me an academic composer, and the conservatories need someone like me.

Library：所以说是一个成功的作曲家，他需要兼顾一个是自己专业上的一个探索，还要同时兼顾这个音乐审美在社会上整体的推广。
Library: So a successful composer needs to incorporation both his or her own musical exploration and aesthetic advancement in the whole society.

Lu：你说的这点就是我跟他回答的。我说，作为一个在中国的作曲家—因为在美国的话你不需要看这种事情—因为美国的话这个一圈一圈是很清楚的，虽然它有些overlap，可是这个是古典音乐圈，这个是流行音乐圈，这个电影音乐圈，是很清楚的。可是在中国，你就得，需要你的时候，你是学院派作曲家，需要你的时候你又得是音乐会作曲家。所以我现在基本上两种东西都得写一点。可是更偏重于就说，音乐会作曲家这一点。因为现代音乐，从1945年二战以后，一直发展到60年代到80年代这个顶峰，就是很多流派，各自实验。可是到现在已经又回归，又回来注重。。。我记得我以前读过一本书就是说，西方文明中的音乐文化，Paul Henry Lang写的。作者一般不加自己的评语，但这本书它就写到那个Prokofiev说的一句话，“旋律永远是最重要的。”然后他的评语就说，大师们说出的话有时也不靠谱。就说，那时候他写这本书的时候就已经觉得旋律已经根本不重要了。其实这是很激进的看法。我那个时候，我并不写旋律，可我也不敢说它不重要。现在看来，现在回到这里来了，我还是写旋律，可是这个旋律肯定跟他那个时候已经不一样了。它是一个螺旋发展的情况。所以我说的发展新传统就是这个意思。还是传统的说法，可是它已经又旋到另外一个高度上去了。
Lu: This is also my answer to him. I said, in the U.S. groups are quite defined, despites the overlap. You have the classical music cycle, the popular music cycle, the film music cycle, etc. Very defined. However, in China, you have to be both concert composer, and academic composer depends on the need. So I do both. Maybe now I am more leaning towards a concert composer. The contemporary music has reached the acme of its development in the 60s to 80s, where numerous schools and experiments had been carried out. I remember reading this book, Music in Western Culture, Music in Western Culture, by Paul Henry Lang, he put a comment on the remark addressed by Prokofiev that “Melody is the most important.” And he commented: Even the master can make a mistake sometimes. It was very extreme. Although I don’t write melodies, I wouldn’t say anything like this. It is more like a spiral development. This is also what I meant by neo-traditional. It is still traditional, but it reaches another peak.

Library：内核更新了。
Library: The “CPU” got updated.

Lu：对对对。所以你说，要对社会要有什么影响，真的不敢说有什么影响。这不是我们能说的。你只不过是一个作曲的，一个艺术家。如果你是想要有影响的话，你可以有影响。如果你不想要影响的话，nothing。
Lu: Right. So when you asked about the impact on society, I really wouldn’t dare to think about that. It is not something we can control as a composer or an artist. If you want to make an impact, you may. But that is not your intention, there will be nothing.

Library：跟自己的追求，还有motivation有关。
Library: So it is about one’s goal and motivation.

Lu：对，更多的是自己的满足。
Lu: Right, and self-satisfaction.

Library：好的！那谢谢陆老师参加我们这次访谈！
Library: Great! Thank you, Prof. Lu for participating in our interview.